An independent and uncensored Slots Forum community to discuss Jackpots, Trip Reports, Advantage Play, and more. Please visit the Advantage Play sub-forum. We have a LOVE/HATE relationship with advantage play slot machines! Chasing the 'almost bonus' is sometimes amazing, and sometimes more costly than hoped for. Card counting at blackjack is the classic advantage play. But hole-carding, shuffle tracking, ace sequencing, edge sorting, loss rebates, and show-up money are all part of the advantage-play arsenal at casino blackjack. The most effective APs can gain an advantage over the house at other games as well. ALWAYS KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN FOR ADVANTAGE PLAY ON THE SLOTS - YouTube Super Lit Vegas is a slot that has advantage play if you know what you're looking.
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sabreSo it's illegal to set slot machines to pay more than they take in? That's like saying it's illegal to give out money lol.
But seriously don't reply to that because we are seriously getting off topic. Yes you are right that all that matters for slot AP is I the next spin is has positive EV but think about the question that I posted. Is the positive EV coming from the slot game itself or the side game winnings? And yes side games that give free spins is a side game award & not a slot award. Also games that have reel manipulation where your reels can grow in size (buffalo rampage) is a side game & not the standard slot game!!!
You insist on using words that only have meaning to you. You have people that have worked in the industry telling you that 'side game' and 'standard game' aren't terms used in the industry. Your insistence on using them is strange.
Oops - Mission addressed this much more clearly than I could as I was typing this.
Yes, many states have a jurisdictional maximum slot return.
The maximum return in West Virginia for a slot machine is supposed to be 95%, for one example. Keep in mind that various states tax casino revenues, which refers to net win, so it is indeed in a jurisdiction's interest that the casino not give money away.
The positive EV is coming as a fundamental function of the way the game was designed. I still don't know what you mean by, 'Side games.' Some machines have what you might call, 'Side game,' and others do not. I would say that most variable state slot machines that a person would vulture do not have a, 'Side game,' or if they do, that the side game has nothing to do with whether the machine's next spin has a positive expectation.
If you're referring to Progressive Free Games machines, a few of which function on a must-hit basis, then I will say that those are not the only types of variable-state slots that can be played at an advantage. In fact, they'd be in the minority.
Even if you expanded on that to include all progressives of any kind, there would still be slot machines that can be played at an advantage provided you know when to play and when not to play. Of those, the, 'Free Games,' usually has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the game is at an advantage because the Free Games probabilities (and expected returns of Free Games) tend to be a known and fixed commodity.
Thank you for teaching me something new, this doesn't happen often here so id like to give you some serious respect for that ;) Never would have guessed a state would care about a casinos minimum house edge. This only applies to gaming machines correct? Obviously we have table games with much less of a house edge ;)
Now getting back to the question at hand. Please share any slot machine that you believe is AP plausible & I will review that machine till my eyes go blind ;)
What fundamental function are you talking about? Let me rephrase the question, do you know any slot machines which are not AP plausible??? Because if so than what makes the slots that are AP plausible different than the ones that aren't? Is it perhaps because of the extra side games & features that were added on separately to make that game stand out which is causing the game to be AP plausible?
Did you know that the jackpots or bonuses on these machines are not considered part of the slot game???
Legally any mini-game is a separate entity from the main game & you must file for its own gaming application approval & it's own mathematical analysis from a lab!
Can you give some examples of popular games that require a second submission for their bonusses? I have submitted over 100 games and I don't recall ever having to do a second submission for the bonus.
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Even if you expanded on that to include all progressives of any kind, there would still be slot machines that can be played at an advantage provided you know when to play and when not to play. Of those, the, 'Free Games,' usually has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the game is at an advantage because the Free Games probabilities (and expected returns of Free Games) tend to be a known and fixed commodity.
Yes but the variable amount of free games given could be making the game AP plausible. If there is an advantage to gain more free games on certain spins and not others than it's not the slot game that is AP plausible but rather the side game which is providing all the fee spins which is making the entire slot machine AP plausible. Does this make sense?
Anyway, I remember this one from eighth grade debate class.
The first thing that you have done is created a term, 'Side game,' which you have not defined. This term does not have any definite meaning as a term such as, 'Return-to-Player,' has meaning. We can agree on return-to-player and if you spoke to the contrary of the term's accepted meaning, then everyone could just tell you that's not what that means.
For what purpose I do not know, but you have picked a term, 'Side game,' which doesn't really have a set standard. You have neglected to define what you mean by the term, 'Side game,' so far, even though there's no generally accepted meaning that I'm aware of in this context.
Having selected the term, 'Side game,' and not having defined it, you can then say that the term describes basically whatever the hell you want it to describe. Kind of the opposite, because people are saying things which you are then saying are described by the term. If you define the term in advance, then a person could challenge that something you have said does not meet your own definition for the term.
Since you have not yet defined it, you can instead disregard anything that you want to as being a, 'Side game,' even if that thing is not a game of its own at all or is simply a function of the main game.
Everything above seems to be in service to your contention that standard slot games cannot be advantage played---which, for whatever reason, seems very important to you.
If, according to the way you would use the words, 'Standard Slot Game,' and, 'Side Game,' renders AP impossible on the, 'Standard Slot Game,' then I concede that you are right and slots AP is not possible. I can't express a contrary opinion when I don't even know what the words you are using are supposed to mean.
Sorry about the choice of terminology, the terms I'm using are in context to game design. A side game is going to be any separate gaming function that is not a direct payout from slot reels would be considered a side game. So for example if you spin and you hit 3 bells and get paid immediately for those bells & nothing else, that you were paid from the slot game. However you spin and you win a chance to hit a jackpot, you are now getting paid from the combination of the slot game and the side game. Even if you spin and win a free spin, you didn't win the free spin from the standard reel symbols so your winnings are still going to be a combination of slot & side game play.
Can you give some examples of popular games that require a second submission for their bonusses? I have submitted over 100 games and I don't recall ever having to do a second submission for the bonus.
Sorry, I used some poor word choices. Let me revise my statement. It's the same application but the side games are stated as separate entities and are evaluated separately on their own merits because often there is no need to review the slot games mechanics since there hasn't been a slot game redesign in over 20 years.
Thank you for teaching me something new, this doesn't happen often here so id like to give you some serious respect for that ;) Never would have guessed a state would care about a casinos minimum house edge. This only applies to gaming machines correct? Obviously we have table games with much less of a house edge ;)
You're welcome. Many states tax both table games and slots at the same percentage, but some states tax them at different percentages. Oddly enough, the State of Pennsylvania is one that taxes slots/video poker revenues at more than 50%, but taxes Table Games at a significantly lower percentage.
Now getting back to the question at hand. Please share any slot machine that you believe is AP plausible & I will review that machine till my eyes go blind ;)
What fundamental function are you talking about? Let me rephrase the question, do you know any slot machines which are not AP plausible??? Because if so than what makes the slots that are AP plausible different than the ones that aren't? Is it perhaps because of the extra side games & features that were added on separately to make that game stand out which is causing the game to be AP plausible?
Ocean Magic and just start with the Wizard of Odds page. That game does have, 'Free Games,' but the component that makes Ocean Magic variable state has absolutely nothing to do with the Free Games. The component is also not a side game...unless you REALLY want to call it one, but it all acts as part of one game.
Yes. Any slot machine that does not have a progressive or a variable-state function of any kind is not AP plausible on its own. Walk into a casino. Look around. Almost all of them. Diamond Hunt, Quick Hits (if no Progressives), Better Off Ed...all kinds of games.
The features are not, 'Added separately,' they're just part of the game. Ocean Magic without the bubbles would never get approved because just the reels + Free Games would not meet minimum return requirements. You'd have to change one of those two things to make the return better, anyway.
Yes but the variable amount of free games given could be making the game AP plausible. If there is an advantage to gain more free games on certain spins and not others than it's not the slot game that is AP plausible but rather the side game which is providing all the fee spins which is making the entire slot machine AP plausible. Does this make sense?
I understand what you are describing and would never think to call that a, 'Side Game.' You would just call that a Progressive Free Games meter.
Interestingly, the slot machine game Three Kings has a progressive Free Games meter, which consists of three different Free Games totals and can NEVER be played at an advantage...even if all three meters are at their max.
Anyway, there are a few games that do what you describe with a couple of recent newish ones that just came out. I wouldn't say there are a ton of any of those, but there are a few. I don't understand why knowing the approximate value of each Free Game and then figuring out what a particular Progressive (or combination) needs to be that would not count as slots advantage play...but if you say it doesn't, then I guess it doesn't.
You insist on using words that only have meaning to you. You have people that have worked in the industry telling you that 'side game' and 'standard game' aren't terms used in the industry. Your insistence on using them is strange.
Oops - Mission addressed this much more clearly than I could as I was typing this.
This is were your wrong. Yes those terms may not be used in the casino gaming industry but they should be since they are standard terms that are used in virtually every other gaming industry you can thing. Just because the casino industry isn't hip to the times of new game design doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Seriously the casino industry is stuck in the 1900's we're every other gaming industry (including board games) is up to date with it's time. That's why I entered the casino industry, because it's the 1 industry with the least about of improvements thought the decades ;)
Sorry about the choice of terminology, the terms I'm using are in context to game design. A side game is going to be any separate gaming function that is not a direct payout from slot reels would be considered a side game. So for example if you spin and you hit 3 bells and get paid immediately for those bells & nothing else, that you were paid from the slot game. However you spin and you win a chance to hit a jackpot, you are now getting paid from the combination of the slot game and the side game. Even if you spin and win a free spin, you didn't win the free spin from the standard reel symbols so your winnings are still going to be a combination of slot & side game play.
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That's fine. What I am saying is that some functions influence the reels themselves and are a part of the main game. If a function turns certain reels or symbols wild, then that is a function of the main game and happens in the context of a given spin. I'd never call that a, 'Side game,' because it's not a separate game. That would be like saying being able to buy all of the railroads is a side game on Monopoly.
Advantage gambling, or advantage play, refers to legal methods, in contrast to cheating in casinos, used to gain an advantage while gambling. The term usually refers to house-banked games, but can also refer to games played against other players, such as poker. Someone who practises advantage gambling is often referred to as an advantage player, or AP. Unlike cheating, which is by definition illegal, advantage play exploits innate characteristics of a particular game to give the player an advantage relative to the house or other players. While not illegal, advantage play is often discouraged and some advantage players may be banned by certain casinos.
A skillful or knowledgeable player can gain an advantage at a number of games. Card games have been beaten by card sharps for centuries. Some slot machines and lotteries with progressive jackpots can eventually have such a high jackpot that they offer a positive return or overlay when played long term, according to the gambling mathematics. Some online games can be beaten with bonus hunting.
Sports and horse betting[edit]
Sports and horse betting can be beaten by placing arbitrage bets, which involve placing bets at different bookmakers who are offering different lines. Many online sports books now offer bonuses like free bets or free money. These bonuses usually come with a stipulation that the bettor place a certain number of bets. For example, a site may offer a bettor $50 free if they deposit $100 and place a total of $1000 in bets. These can reduce the vig taken by the house or even offer the bettor a small advantage.[citation needed]
Another form of advantage can be found by betting the 'middle' on a sports event. This situation occurs when two bookmakers are offering different lines on the same event, or if a bettor has placed a bet and the bookmaker changes the line. The bettor simply takes the most favorable lines at each bookmaker, and if the result of the contest is between the numbers, or in the 'middle', then the bettor wins both bets.
For example, Bookmaker A lists the Jets to be a 4-point favorite over the Bills. Bookmaker B has the Jets as just a 2-point favorite. The advantage player may bet the Bills +4 with Book A and then the Jets -2 with Book B. If the Jets win by 3, the advantage player collects on both bets. If the Jets win by either 2 or 4, the advantage player collects on one winning bet and the other 'push.' And if the Jets win or lose by any other total, the two bets cancel out, leaving the advantage player to pay only the vigorish on the bets. Given typical 10-cent lines, a middle need only win 1 time in 21 to break even, which is a realistic goal – the middle is always a plausible result since it is based on the actual strength of the teams. Middling is an example of line arbitrage.
Special offers[edit]
Using special offers provided by bookmakers it is possible for a skilled bettor to put the odds in their favour. Special offers may include; cashback on specific events, enhanced odds and comp points. To profit from these specials, a skilled bettor will use betting, laying and dutching[1] to create their own book on an event that may not guarantee profit but will still put the odds in their favour instead of the bookmaker(s) involved. Sign up bonuses are also classed as special offers and can be used in a similar way to lock in a profit regardless of the result using the principles of matched betting.
Betting exchanges[edit]
Betting exchanges offer advantage players a chance to make a larger profit than possible with bookmakers because exchanges charge commission only on the net winnings[2] in a particular betting market. One way to make money on the exchanges is 'trading' - in the above example, the Jets might be a favorite decimal odds of 1.90 to defeat the Bills. If a 'trader' thinks these odds too long he may bet $1000 on the Jets, and should he prove correct and the odds on the Jets get shorter, 'lay off' by laying, say, a $1016 bet against the Jets at 1.87. If the Jets win, he collects $900 on his bet on the Jets and pays out approximately $884 on the bet he laid against the Jets. If the Jets lose, he loses his $1000 stake on the Jets but keeps the $1016 stake on the bet he laid against the Jets. Either way, the 'trader' makes a $16 profit and he will pay a commission only on that profit (usually not more than 5% or 80 cents in this example) for a net profit of $15.20 regardless of the result. Of course, if the odds go the wrong way the 'trader' may lose money but most exchanges do not charge a commission in the event of a net loss.
Blackjack[edit]
Blackjack and other table games can usually be beaten with card counting, hole carding, shuffle tracking, edge sorting, or several other methods. The players most skilled in these techniques have been nominated to the Blackjack Hall of Fame. Some video poker games, such as full pay Deuces Wild, can be beaten by the use of a strategy card[3] devised by computer analysis of the game and often for sale in casino gift shops. And similar to the Blackjack Hall of Fame, there is an internet 'Video Poker Hall of Fame'.[4]
Poker[edit]
Poker can offer a long-term advantage to a skilled player because it is played against other players and not against the house. The casino usually takes a rake (commission) or a time charge. Whether a poker player can win enough from the game to cover the rake and make a profit depends, aside from the rake level, not only on the player's skill, but also on the opposition's lack thereof - the degree of difficulty can vary widely from casino to casino. Tables with relatively easy opposition are referred to as 'soft.'
There is another advantage to playing poker as opposed to games where play is against the house: since the house has no direct interest in the outcome of a poker game, successful poker players can operate openly without risk of being banned by casinos.
While in the short term luck primarily determines a poker player's results, over the long term the skilled player will invariably profit if playing against weaker competition. A player can profit from their skill in many ways. For example, by understanding pot odds and implied odds, a player can assess whether it will be profitable to chase a flush or straight draw. Identifying exploitable patterns in an opponent's play also gives the skilled player an edge. For example, a weak opponent might almost never bluff, or might bluff far too often. Or an opponent might make huge bets only as bluffs, and make smaller bets with good hands (or vice versa). If a skilled player notices these patterns in an opponent's play, he or she can make better decisions when facing a bet from that player.
In live settings, some players will take advantage of tells, that is, opponent facial expressions and mannerisms that may give away information about the strength of the player's hand. Skilled players use all available information (not only an opponent's actions earlier in a hand, but also his or her actions during previous hands) to assess which action will be most profitable, be it a call or a fold, a bluff or a bet for value.
Other ways to gain an advantage[edit]
Dice control[edit]
Experts disagree about whether or not an advantage can be gained at some other games. One example is dice control. Authors Stanford Wong[5] and Frank Scoblete[6] have stated that by setting and throwing the dice in a certain way players can alter the odds at the game of craps enough to gain an advantage.
Pachinko[edit]
In the Japanese game of pachinko, there are numerous purported strategies for winning, the most reliable of which is to use inside information to learn which machines have the highest payout settings. Because of the 'Stock', 'Renchan', and tenjō systems, it is possible to make money by simply playing machines on which someone has just lost a huge amount of money. This is called being a 'hyena'. They are easy to recognize, roaming the aisles for a 'Kamo' ('sucker' in English) to leave their machine in a favorable mode.
Angle shooting[edit]
'Angle shooting' is another type of advantage play. Despite 'angle shooting' being legal, it is possibly an unethical way to beat casino games. One way to get an advantage at a casino is 'hole carding' where a player tries to look at the dealer's hole card in blackjack and then uses that information to play their hand differently.[7] This clearly gives an advantage to the player since knowing your opponent's cards reduces the risks involved in the game. Taking advantage of incorrect payouts is another example of angle shooting. For example, if an inexperienced dealer pays 2 to 1 on a blackjack instead of 3 to 2, not correcting him or her is also taking advantage of an incorrect payout.[8]
'Angle shooting' can also happen in poker. For instance, in no-limit poker a player may hide high denomination chips behind stacks of low denomination chips, giving off an appearance that their stack is less powerful than it really is. Another example is making an illegal move, which the player may later declare void if it suits them. While angle shooting is seen as 'fair game' in games against the house, it is heavily frowned upon in games where players compete with other players, as it ruins the table atmosphere, makes the game less appealing to novice players, and is not in the spirit of the game.[9]
Casinos and playrooms continually create new rules to defeat angle shooting techniques.[9]
Comp hustling[edit]
Comp hustling can be another form of advantage gambling. Players, known as comp hustlers or comp wizards, who play games with a low house advantage or low bet size such as penny slots, can get more than their expected loss in free items from the casino.[10] Many advantage players also take steps to maximize the comps they receive from their play.[11]
Roulette wheel[edit]
Roulette wheels with manufacturing defects or uneven wear may land on some numbers with a statistically significantly greater frequency. It is sometimes possible, through large numbers of observations, or noting patterns of wear on the wheel's surface, to determine when this is the case and bet accordingly.[12] Physician Richard Jarecki was able to exploit this to great effect at European casinos in the 1960s and 1970s.[12]
Hazards[edit]
Casinos sometimes take measures to thwart players who they believe pose a threat to them, especially card-counters or hole-card players. However, some casinos tolerate card-counters who do not bet large amounts, who are not good at counting, or who do not use a large betting spread.
Some countermeasures include shuffling when the deck is favorable to the player, imposing betting limits, 'backing off' players by asking them not to play blackjack any more, or asking a player to leave the casino. In New Jersey, a player may not be asked to leave a table for counting cards, although the house may still impose betting limits or shuffle sooner.
Players caught counting cards or hole-carding ultimately may find themselves listed in the Griffin Book and become unwelcome in most casinos.[citation needed] The Griffin Book was sued,[13] but there are other substitutes today.
In the past, video poker and skillful progressive slot machine players were rarely ejected for winning, but the practice is common today.[14] They may have their comps reduced or eliminated.[15]
Skillful sports bettors, known as 'sharps', may have their betting limits reduced and may not be allowed to take advantage of bonuses at online sports books. Instead, skillful sports bettors may rely on 'runners' to place and collect their bets.
Craps players are often stopped from playing if the dice fail to bounce off the back wall of the table.[16]
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Advantage players abide by the established rules of the game and thus, in most jurisdictions, are not regarded as committing fraud against the casino. So, while they may face the above casino-imposed sanctions, they are able to operate without the threat of criminal prosecution for their behavior. This is not the case in all jurisdictions, however, and some advantage players have reported more aggressive countermeasures being taken even in well known gambling locations like Monte Carlo.[17]
See also[edit]
Notes[edit]
- ^'Arbitrage - Dutching - Introduction'. The Gambling Times. Archived from the original on 31 July 2016. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
- ^'Commission'. weebly.com. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
- ^'Video Poker'. Wizard of Odds. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
- ^'vpFREE Hall Of Fame'. west-point.org. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
- ^Wong, Stanford (2005). Wong on Dice. Pi Yee Press.
- ^Scoblete, Frank (2005). 'Beat the Craps Out of the Casinos. Bonus Books.
- ^Uston, Ken (1992). Million Dollar Blackjack. Carol Publishing Corporation.
- ^'Blackjack Dealer Error'. Blackjack Forum (Online ed.). Summer 2007.
- ^ ab'Angle Shooting | Poker Terms | PokerNews'. www.pokernews.com. Retrieved 9 October 2019.
- ^Rubin, Max (June 2001). Comp City. Huntington Press.
- ^Scott, Jean (January 1998). The Frugal Gambler. Huntington Press.
- ^ abSlotnik, Daniel E. 'Richard Jarecki, Doctor Who Conquered Roulette, Dies at 86', The New York Times, August 8, 2018
- ^'Griffin book producer files for Chapter 11, citing suit'. Las Vegas Sun. 13 September 2005. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
- ^'Lion Tales: Fall of the Roman Empire'. brodietech.com. Retrieved 2 August 2016.
- ^Dancer, Bob (March 1, 2003). Million Dollar Video Poker. Huntington Press.
- ^Brokopp, John. 'Dice Control - Fact or Fiction'. Casino City Times.
- ^'Interviews - Semyon Dukach - MIT Card Counting Team Captain'. ThePOGG. Retrieved 10 November 2012.